EFR 886: Burnout, Identity, and the Joy Prescription for a Life Worth Living with Tiffany Moon, MD

00:00 - Chase (Host)

The following is an operation podcast production. 

00:03 - Tiffany (Guest)

Hi, I'm dr Tiffany moon. I'm a board-certified Anesthesiologist, entrepreneur and author of joy prescriptions. This is ever forward, hi. 

00:11 - Chase (Host)

so my guest today is dr Tiffany moon, and she was living the dream physician, professor, public figure, housewife. She was living the dream physician, professor, public figure, housewife but behind the scenes she was silently burning out. I think so many of us are dealing with burnout and just this illusion of perfection. So can you take us back to the quote blinders phase of your life, and what did chasing perfection cost you? 

00:41 - Tiffany (Guest)

Oh gosh, that's such a good question. The blinders phase of my life is basically when I was on a single track towards becoming a doctor, because when I immigrated from China to the United States and I was growing up in a very frugal household and my parents were struggling to make ends meet, they basically ingrained in me that when I become a doctor, like everything of the world will be full. It was just this-. 

01:09 - Chase (Host)

When, not if huh. 

01:10 - Tiffany (Guest)

Oh, when it was, when you know if you wanted to stay in that household, there was not a question about it and I became a doctor. But I think, at the detriment of stopping to smell the roses, enjoying the path, discovering who I was. I mean, I graduated from Cornell when I was 19, went straight into medical school and graduated at the top of my medical school class when I was 23 years old. 

01:36 - Chase (Host)

Humble brag, but own all that. 

01:38 - Tiffany (Guest)

No, but I'm just saying it's a humble brag, but also like I didn't do anything else right, like I didn't do any self-exploration, I didn't take any business classes, I didn't go backpacking through Europe, I never studied abroad, like everything else in life was sacrificed to get to that finish line. Those were the blinders. And then I crossed this proverbial finish line and it's like oh, is that it? And I don't mean to say that I don't love being a physician or I don't find my work valuable, but you just put so much weight on that one thing and you get there, and it's kind of a letdown. 

02:22 - Chase (Host)

Like kind of a letdown, or was it just? Oh, this actually is not at all what I wanted. 

02:29 - Tiffany (Guest)

I didn't even know what I wanted. I just wanted to make my parents happy. I wanted them to love me and I wanted to feel worthy. I wanted to make their sacrifice worth it, and so that's what I thought I had to do. Well, that's what I was told I needed to do, and so I did it. And then you get there and you look around and it's not all it's cracked up to be. I felt immensely lost. You know, I read a study not long ago about Olympic athletes that a significant amount of them, shortly after winning a gold medal, have depression because while you're working towards it, it's like gold training you're focused on it, let's get it, and then you get it. 

03:28 - Chase (Host)

And it's like now what, now what At the pinnacle, I mean of career, but also, I think, everyone around the world knows what an Olympic athlete is. So there's like this whole other layer to that. 

03:43 - Tiffany (Guest)

That is just now, what times, I don't know 100. Yeah, jeez, yeah. And by no means am I comparing myself to an Olympic athlete, but I just think when you put all your eggs in, one basket like that and you sacrifice everything else, the relationships, you know your self care, nurturing your soul. You know having a relationship with other people, it you kind of it's, I don't know angry, resentful, depressed. 

04:09 - Chase (Host)

All the above, I went, yes, I went through all of these emotions. 

04:14

So my guest today, tiffany Moon, is an amazing person amazing mom, tv personality, doctor. She is now an author. We're here to talk about her new book. So maybe reading isn't quite your jam. You're more of a listener. That's why you're listening to this podcast. So if you're a book lover, listen up. And if you'd like a free audio book, I got you covered. 

04:33

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05:35

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06:24

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07:19 - Tiffany (Guest)

Oh for sure. I mean I think my story is probably relatable to a lot of people who are immigrants or children of immigrants to this country. I think you know everyone comes to America for the land of opportunity and the chance for a better life. But I also think that a lot of that pressure gets put on the shoulders of the children, right, that they have to make it worth their parents' sacrifices and we internalize that. And I just got done talking to my friend about being a people pleaser. But I grew up being a people pleaser and wanting to be perfect. I literally thought that in order to be loved and feel worthy, I needed to be perfect. That is what I thought until I was probably 25 years old. 

08:06 - Chase (Host)

You know, as a husband of a first generation Iranian American woman, I can relate by proximity alone and I can tell you, even that is a lot for me. And so to even put myself in the shoes of someone like yourself or her coming to another country, or just one generation shy of coming to another country, that weight, that unspoken burden in some situations is so, so heavy, and I'm so glad someone like yourself is here to kind of like unpack that, unburden that and to share your story, but to give permission to others to even just entertain the idea of am I burdened? Am I living the life that I wanted? Is any of this ringing true? It might be your norm, but it doesn't mean it has to be your life. 

08:54 - Tiffany (Guest)

Right, yeah. And I by no means am like blaming my parents for this. You know, I probably wouldn't be where I am today without them, for sure, I mean I also learned a lot of my drive and determination and perseverance from them, so it's like it's two sides of the same coin right Always, always is yeah. 

09:17 - Chase (Host)

What are the earliest signs you think of burnout? 

09:19 - Tiffany (Guest)

that most people are probably ignoring Apathy. 

09:22 - Chase (Host)

Not expecting that. Go deeper there for me, please. What do you mean? 

09:26 - Tiffany (Guest)

Um, you just stop caring. And you know I went into medicine because I truly wanted to help people. Like I love helping others. It makes it feels good to me, it fuels my soul when I can help other people, like I love being sort of the go-to person. My friends call when they need something. I have references for this and if I don't know, I will find someone who does. And I noticed about five, six years ago. I just didn't care anymore. 

10:02 - Chase (Host)

About anything, about your career, about anything in particular? Or was it just this collective sense of apathy? 

10:08 - Tiffany (Guest)

It was just a collective sense of apathy. Yeah, about work. I used to have this drive to, you know, want to teach and do research and publish papers, and after a while it was just sort of like what's the point, you know? And I was like whoa and even my friends were like, are you the point, you know? And I was like Whoa and even my friends were like, are you okay? Cause I've always been a go-getter, and if I was like, oh, I don't really care, they're like what are you talking? Like you care a lot. 

10:33 - Chase (Host)

So this was not only an inner voice of yours, but you're actually sharing it out loud and sharing with others. I don't think a lot of people are doing the latter, probably out of fear of making it real, but also, to your point, getting this feedback from people that are like wait a minute, what are you talking about? That's not you. That's like a whole nother layer of burnout, isn't it? 

10:51 - Tiffany (Guest)

Yeah, that concerned me. When my friends were like are you okay? And I'm like cause I thought it was okay, right, I just thought I was like changing, getting older, and they're like this isn't you. 

11:02 - Chase (Host)

This isn't normal. 

11:03 - Tiffany (Guest)

Yes, because the people who know you and love you and have spent time with you sort of know your personality right, they know when you're a little off and I was like, oh, that's concerning, like I was worried that they were worried. 

11:14 - Chase (Host)

And then it's just like this self-feeding cycle. 

11:16 - Tiffany (Guest)

Yes, and my anxiety was really bad. I in retrospect probably I mean most definitely had postpartum depression, anxiety, all those sorts of things, but at that time I was still in this like full force forward. I was going to be this high powered academic anesthesiologist like, publish all these papers, run all these clinical trials. I went back to work six weeks after birthing twins, was pumping in the operating room, taking 24 hour trauma call one weekend per month liver transplant call. I was head of our residency uh recruitment, interviewing medical students who wanted to pursue a career in anesthesia. Like there was a lot going on and I think I burned myself out. 

12:07 - Chase (Host)

Did you ever worry, or was there ever a moment that you'd be willing to share, of just realizing? Getting back to work and having all these realizations to yourself and with other people about burnout and apathy, like actually seeping into your work? 

12:23 - Tiffany (Guest)

I never thought about burnout. I never thought that I would be someone who experienced burnout. I used to think that when other people said that they had burnout, that they were just copping out and they just couldn't stand the heat. You know, I'm like another one bites the dust Like. You know what I mean. I guess they couldn't cut it. 

12:42 - Chase (Host)

You know what I mean. 

12:44 - Tiffany (Guest)

The pendulum swings. So much you know. And through my work with my therapist lots of books, lots of podcasts, lots of reflection and meditation I came to the realization that like, yeah, I was super burnt out, but I refused to acknowledge it, Just like I refused to acknowledge that I probably had postpartum depression because I thought it was a badge of honor to keep going, and I thought that there was a stigma to seek care for mental health. I thought that there was no problem in the world that you could not solve by working harder, putting your head down and like grinding it out. 

13:23 - Chase (Host)

Spoken like a true child of an immigrant. I've heard that so many times in my wife's household. It's a very common theme in the Persian community as well. So I feel that I feel that for you yeah, so you're kind of just unraveling a few or unpacking a few different modalities that you said maybe helped you kind of understand and work through this burnout podcast, therapy, you know, maybe journaling, meditation. I think when we're looking for help for whatever we're going through in life, we do so probably out of what we hear is the most helpful or maybe what worked for another person. How did you know which modality to go towards and how did you truly know that listening to this podcast, reading this book talking about this with your therapist meditation, insert, any tool here was actually moving the needle for you in a positive way? 

14:15 - Tiffany (Guest)

I mean, I felt better for one. You know, but there's no metric right, you don't take a score and they're like oh, your mental health is an A today. But I felt better. I felt myself being more connected to my family and my friends. I found myself being less snappy. You know where you're at your wits end and like one little thing and you're just going to snap right Like I was to that point. And then I had to cut back at work. I dialed back at work. I worked full time for eight years post residency and then I asked my chair to go part-time, which is one day off per week. People were like, oh my God. But you have to understand. At the time I firmly believed that as soon as I went on the part-time track, that they weren't going to take me seriously anymore, like I talk about so she's on her way out, kind of thing. 

15:00

Yes, Like I talk about in the book. They call it the mommy track. Oh, she's on the mommy track. Yes, Like I talk about in the book. They call it the mommy track. 

15:07

Oh, she's on the mommy track, and that is such a rude thing to say, you know what I mean. Like there's no daddy track. But um, uh. So I asked to go part-time one day, which in many ways was career suicide, because after that I wasn't promoted, I didn't get, you know, put up for committee chairs and things like that. There's this subtle. You know what I mean. 

15:29 - Chase (Host)

Unspoken, but we all know it's there. Yes. 

15:32 - Tiffany (Guest)

Everybody knows it. But if you ask the powers that be, they're like no, no, no. Like no, of course yeah. 

15:38 - Chase (Host)

Yeah, my wife was in the very same and recent vote. She's a family nurse practitioner and she extended. We chose to extend her maternity leave an extra month, and this was a very real conversation. We're having a very real fear of hers of. Am I taking too much? Is this going to be seen as some kind of you know weakness or putting me on this like pushing out track? So I feel you, I feel it's very real and very unfortunate. 

16:02 - Tiffany (Guest)

Yeah, I mean we can go on about this, but the fact that the United States is the only developed country that doesn't have paid maternal leave is wild to me. In France, you get a year off to bond with your newborn, to recover from the physical trauma of pushing, of growing a human and then pushing it out of your body In my case too, and I went back to work six weeks after having twins. It's stupidity. It's not even a badge of honor, it's not like oh wow, it's stupid. I wish that I hadn't done that. But at the time my FMLA had run out and I was basically told if you don't come back to work, you may not have a job when you return. And I was like, oh crap, you know. And back then my job was everything to me. I, you know if you've sacrificed everything your, your friendships, your own, you know happiness to get to this point, and that's part of your identity. 

17:04 - Chase (Host)

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18:56

Today, I was waiting for the I word to pop in. Yeah, it's crucial, and especially when talking about burnout, I think that's the biggest thing, or maybe the last thing that we really realize is happening. We're loosening the grip. The grip is being loosened on us, not our own choice of our identity. Of what identity did I have? What am I losing? Which one am I stepping into? There's so much wrapped up in identity. Yep, yep. Well, the story is we should all just move to France, which I'm not against, by the way. 

19:29 - Tiffany (Guest)

I mean the way things are panning out in this country. 

19:32 - Chase (Host)

I'd be lying if I was saying I'm not looking at Zillow in Paris recently, but yeah, I'm going there later this summer. 

19:39 - Tiffany (Guest)

I'm going to have to look for some apartments or something. 

19:46 - Chase (Host)

Well, I got notes. I got notes. So you know we're here to talk really about joy prescription, this joy prescription, excuse me, this incredible new book. So what exactly is a joy prescription and how did you really finally start formulating your own? 

19:57 - Tiffany (Guest)

Ah, yes, so the the reason the book is called joy prescriptions is because it is a memoir, but at the end of each chapter I write the reader a joy prescription, because sometimes you read about someone else's life and it's like lovely and nice, but then you're like well, how does this benefit me? And I kind of wanted to be a little play on me being a doctor like, oh, I'm prescribing you something, so it's really just telling a little section of my life. And then at the end of the chapter it's like and this is how you can apply that to your life, to live more authentically, to stop comparing yourself to other people, to insert a little laughter in your life I mean, 10 years ago, no laughter in my life. Very serious, very straight laced, because I felt that I had to have a certain demeanor in order for people to take me seriously. Right, because I would walk into a patient's room. 

20:51

I'm an anesthesiologist, I have about five minutes to gain your trust before I'm going to literally have your life in my hands. Right, and, I think, as a small Asian woman who appears young. Right, when I walked into a room and introduced myself hi, I'm Dr Moon, I'm going to be your anesthesiologist. Today there were occasional looks from patients or their family members and sometimes they would be like you're our anesthesiologist and I'm like, yes, or I would spend like five, 10 minutes going over their medical history, what the anesthetic plan was, all this stuff. And then they're like do you know when the doctor's coming? 

21:34 - Chase (Host)

in oh no come on. 

21:36 - Tiffany (Guest)

No, I can't make this up. I can't make it up. You know, I once had a male medical student who was shadowing me, who was lovely, and they kept thinking that I was the medical student and he, it was just. It's so funny, you know. Um, I mean, I'm flattered now If, if I walk into a room and they're like you're anesthesia, you look too young to be a doctor, I'm like oh, the Botox is working. 

21:58 - Chase (Host)

Take the compliment, but put them in their place. 

22:00 - Tiffany (Guest)

Yes, it's this new night cream. I've been wearing Um but. But I thought that I needed to have a certain demeanor to counteract the way I look, Cause there's not much I can change about the way I look, because there's not much I can change about the way I look. Right, I'm small, I'm Asian, I'm female, that's it. But at least if I am very serious, don't crack jokes, use big words. Maybe they'll take me a little bit more seriously. And I saw a lot of the older male physicians kind of like cracking jokes with the patients, like being more casual, and I was like I could never be that persona, right, Like I need to command authority. 

22:36 - Chase (Host)

Trying to kill that white coat syndrome? 

22:37 - Tiffany (Guest)

Yes, yes, and so, um, laughter was not very important in my life until recently, and I'm like wait, I need to laugh. It feels good when I laugh. 

22:47 - Chase (Host)

Oh, it's the best I hope you have. You had a good laugh today. 

22:50 - Tiffany (Guest)

Yes, I just came from another show when we were really laughing a lot. 

22:54 - Chase (Host)

Yeah, we were making TikToks. Well, like I said, I don't know about the TikTok game, but I'm a new dad and so I've definitely got dad jokes for days, so maybe later on we'll see if I get inspired. I don't know. So what mindset shift really helped you go from busy and burned out to present and peaceful? 

23:17 - Tiffany (Guest)

helped you go from busy and burned out to present and peaceful. I would say that I stopped trying to attain perfection, which actually is unattainable, and I started taking imperfect action. Yeah, like with my business with posting on social media. I used to be so afraid to post on social media. I'd spend like an hour photoshopping something I didn't like the way my body looked or whatever. Now I'll take a picture, send it immediately. I do not care and it's just. It's this mindset shift, because the fact of the matter is most people don't even care. Most people are like scrolling by and we care so much we think other people are analyzing our imperfections, hanging on to our every word. 

23:58

When in fact no one cares. It's actually quite freeing to have this new mindset of thinking like, wow, you take everything so seriously, but actually no one cares. 

24:11 - Chase (Host)

It reminds me. I was looking at your Instagram and I think one of your your most viewed or recent ones of you just excuse me, hot mess going out in public. I think it was a grocery store and you were like the older I get, the less I care about how I look in public, kind of thing, and just like you know owning it, and again, no one's probably really actually looking. And I'll say this if you're here in LA, kind of the more disheveled you look, I think people take you more seriously. There's this game I play all the time of going homeless or millionaire. Uh, and it's just. You know people honestly like they think you're more of a person, more of a somebody when you're just rolling out and yesterday sweats. 

24:46 - Tiffany (Guest)

Yeah, homeless or hipster. 

24:48 - Chase (Host)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. Um, that's like Mark Zuckerberg, but he, his t-shirts are apparently like 500 dollars, you know, I don't know, it looks like a plain t-shirt, yeah it's like a bell curve, you know. 

24:59 - Tiffany (Guest)

It's like you don't dress nice. Then you dress nice and you have all the labels because you're trying to impress everyone. And then you get to a certain level and you're just like I'm just gonna wear t-shirts I have like five of like this shirt in every color. 

25:11

No, no I have decided to have a capsule wardrobe so that I don't have to think because I cannot make any more decisions. I have decision making fatigue and I I can't make any more decisions like my, my husband's, like what do you want for dinner? I'm like figure it out, babe. Figure it out, get food on the table. They just want us to handle it, guys I'm here to tell, tell you, just just handle it, that's been my claim to fame with my wife recently. 

25:38 - Chase (Host)

I um, we'll have a little sidebar. She would say this from time to time and then, about two years ago actually, at her birthday party, another girlfriend of hers mutual friend of ours was talking about how I'm just so tired of being in my masculine energy and she was complaining about this recent, you know, she's just got to have a relationship and she was like I just want the guy to handle it, I just want him to do this and I'm like, oh, like this isn't just a you thing, babe, but this is like every woman just wants the guy to handle it. 

26:02 - Tiffany (Guest)

Yes, yes, yes, I want to be a follower, but you need're not a good leader, then I'm not going to be your follower. Yeah, so I need you to handle it. 

26:13 - Chase (Host)

Pro tip guys. If, uh, if your woman, if your wife, your girlfriend is asking anything, whatever, just hit them back with this. I handled it. Watch the magic happen. I'm telling you yeah, handle it. Yeah, um, all right. So now kind of getting into comparison, identity and understanding and honing in on it and allowing your true, authentic self to stay present. What role did comparison play, do you think, in your childhood and how do you think it followed you into adulthood? 

26:40 - Tiffany (Guest)

Oh my God. I mean, the name of the game of my childhood was comparison. I wrote in the book that no matter how smart and obedient you are, your parents will know somebody whose child who is more smart and more obedient. Do you know? The national pastime of Asian moms is to drink tea and bitch about their children, but like humble bragging. 

27:04 - Chase (Host)

Okay, you know, she only graduated second in her class, correct? 

27:08 - Tiffany (Guest)

Ah, susie, so embarrassing, only salutatorian, not valedictorian, you know? Ah, my johnny, he's so busy he never come to see me. 

27:20 - Chase (Host)

He go to harvard business school. You know it's this. Okay, mom. 

27:22 - Tiffany (Guest)

You know what I mean yeah, yeah, like there's, there's these people on tiktok who make these um like skits of the moms like competing, and they're so funny and and we laugh about it and we make fun of it. But it is so true, the things that are funny are funny because they're true and we see ourselves in that. So you know, when I was growing up, my parents were involved in this Chinese church nearby and that was kind of their like social circle was the church and it would be like so, and so you know, we call everybody auntie even though they're not blood related. 

27:57

Um, auntie Sue's kid, oh, he got this on his SAT score, he won UIL this and he's piano this and it's just like it was constant. My parents, like a constant barrage of our friends, kids, are doing this. Why can't you measure up? And there's this saying in Mandarin that's like and it literally translates to don't lose face. And my dad would say that to me as a child. Oh yeah. 

28:27 - Chase (Host)

Oh, wow. 

28:27 - Tiffany (Guest)

Like eight, nine, ten, I was leaving the house or I was going to a figure skating competition or a smelling bee or something, and my dad would like stop me on my way out the door and be like don't lose face. That was the you know, rah, rah speech. Don't lose face. It's wild, but you know I'm saying all this many ways that gave me the drive to do what I have done. So am I mad about it? Not really. Would I be who I am today without that? I don't know. That's the thing with life. We don't have a copy of ourselves that gets to live life with a different set of parents and a different set of parents and a different set of rules and see how that copy turned out. That's not the way life works. It's not a science experiment. I only have this one life. I only had this one childhood with these two parents, and so in many ways, my resentment and bitterness. Also, I'm grateful in many ways that they were this hard on me, because then maybe I wouldn't have graduated college when I was 23. 

29:37 - Chase (Host)

Well, that's why she's here on Everford Radio. Everybody Just turning the obstacle into the way, no matter what. You know, Everford, I love that. I love that. What does your book say about the impossible standards placed on working mothers? 

29:50 - Tiffany (Guest)

Oh gosh, it's damned if you do, damned if you don't. You know I wanted to be a working mom. I get that a lot of women don't get to make that decision. They have to be a working mom, right, like they have mouths to feed. You know things happen. I chose to be a working mom, which in many ways was even worse. 

30:08 - Chase (Host)

I'm going to ask you real quick Did you think you you really chose to be a working mom, or do you feel like you couldn't choose not to? 

30:18 - Tiffany (Guest)

I just felt that, after everything that I had sacrificed, the loans I had accumulated and the amount of training that I had undergone, to stay home and lose those skills would be a disservice to society. 

30:31 - Chase (Host)

Not because of this childhood upbringing and kind of these expectations placed on you. It was really truly because of you reflecting on the hard work and choices that you had made and you didn't want to give this up. 

30:44 - Tiffany (Guest)

Right, like I wanted to work Okay, good. 

30:46 - Chase (Host)

Yeah, I think this is a very important differentiation. 

30:48 - Tiffany (Guest)

Yeah, no, I wanted to work. And then I felt guilty that I wanted to work. Yeah, no, I wanted to work. And then I felt guilty that I wanted to work, Like I didn't want to stay home and be with my one and two year olds. And you know it sounds terrible. But like after a couple of weeks, months, like there's only so much you can do with a one year old. And look, I love my children, but I need mental stimulation and adult connections and challenge. 

31:14 - Chase (Host)

Correct Children are a huge purpose. Yes, that's not what, of course. 

31:18 - Tiffany (Guest)

Yeah, and I, I really thought that I could do it all. I really thought that I could be a good doctor and be a good mom. And the farther I went, the more impossible that seemed to be. Yeah, it was actually easier when my children were younger because they wouldn't cry when I left, you know. If there were one or two and I went to work, they were sleeping. I mean, they're sleeping like half the time. They don't really know what's going on. Then, when they're like four, five, six and you're not around as much, they're vocal about it, yeah. 

31:53

Or, mommy, how come at the mommy and me breakfast at Friday mornings at preschool? You never come and all the other moms are there. Well, because mommy's in the operating room on Fridays and in order for me to come to breakfast, I would need to take the whole day off. Like I don't get to, you know, come in late to work, like the operating room is very rigid and I don't really get to call the shots, like I need to be there to put patients to sleep for their surgeries. I can't just be like, oh yeah, I'm going to come in at nine on Friday. Yeah, and so it. Just it became very clear to me that I was going to have to choose one or the other. So of course I chose my children and cut back at work. But since then has happened? The promotions have not been forthcoming, the, you know, committee leadership positions, and and that's fine, that's fine. I think that is a problem within medicine, particularly in my institution particularly, and not really a problem within me. 

32:52 - Chase (Host)

I have a friend who, literally last week, graduated Stanford Medical School. This has been her dream as long as I've known her. And she has been waiting and waiting, and waiting and waiting and she finally got in. She did it. And you know what? 

33:06

She graduated Stanford Medical School and is not pursuing becoming a doctor, she is not going to residency because of a lot of the things that you're talking about right here. That's wild Child of immigrant Iranian parents. And just this realization, this really bitter realization of what dent am I going to make in the healthcare system? 

33:27 - Tiffany (Guest)

Yeah. 

33:27 - Chase (Host)

And also kind of the male-female perspective as well you were just talking about. 

33:31 - Tiffany (Guest)

Yeah, yeah, yes, of the male-female perspective as well he was talking about. Yeah, yeah, I mean we can go on and on, but the healthcare system in America, or, as I like to call it, the sick care system, is incredibly broken, and I didn't even know that until like a couple of years ago. You know, like I'm just a cog in the machine going through it, you know, I just clock in, clock out, put patients to sleep for surgery, wake them up, fill out some forms, whatever you know. But the fact of the matter is, of all the developed countries in the world, why do we have the highest rates of cardiovascular disease, cancer? I mean, people in France, like, eat foie gras and smoke, and they're doing better than us, don't you? 

34:06 - Chase (Host)

think something's wrong. Every time I go to France, I smoke. I only have a cigarette when I'm in Europe. Okay, I only have a cigarette when I'm in Europe. No shit, I only smoke when I go to France. 

34:15 - Tiffany (Guest)

That's hilarious. 

34:17 - Chase (Host)

Okay, I'm going to have a cigarette. 

34:18 - Tiffany (Guest)

Maybe it'll be less disgusting in France. 

34:20 - Chase (Host)

I have a cigarette that is hilarious. 

34:23 - Tiffany (Guest)

I love that for you. It's just that the healthcare system here is so bad. I mean we can go on and on about how we, the healthcare system basically profits off of people being chronically ill, being fat, diabetic, with, you know, pickwickian syndrome, obstructive sleep apnea, hypertension, coronary vascular disease, peripheral vascular disease. I mean the list goes on and on. I have patients who have a problem list on the computer that I have to click arrow to go to page two. Oh, come on. And it's just. I'm sure your wife does too. 

34:58

She's family medicine and the system benefits off of people staying sick. Not to mention the food in this country is absolute crap. 

35:08 - Chase (Host)

Even the quote good food. You know we have horrible soil, horrible air quality. 

35:12 - Tiffany (Guest)

Things are just getting sprayed, sprayed and you have to be a millionaire to even buy the good food like normal people can't afford that love. Normal people can't go to whole foods. Are you kidding me? 

35:22 - Chase (Host)

yeah, I'm so happy to see you had a uh. I think in the very opening of your book you had a little intro quote from uh mutual homie. Dr casey means yes I. She's a personal friend. She's been on the show like three, four times now. 

35:34 - Tiffany (Guest)

She's such good people. 

35:35 - Chase (Host)

Love what she's doing. I'm not getting political, but I love what she's doing now in the world and she's another one. Stanford trained, Stanford resident. 

35:42 - Tiffany (Guest)

That's right. She didn't finish her residency. 

35:45 - Chase (Host)

No she's like what am I doing? 

35:53 - Tiffany (Guest)

I know I can't make the change in the world that I set out to do and that is a damn shame, yeah, but she is doing that Contributes to burnout when you realize that the work that you are doing kind of doesn't really make a difference. 

36:01 - Chase (Host)

Yeah. 

36:02 - Tiffany (Guest)

That hurts your soul. 

36:04 - Chase (Host)

Yeah, I left as well. I mean, I was I'm not a physician, but a bachelor's master's health promotion health coach. You know I made health and wellness my life after the military and I was a wellness director for a concierge medical practice. I had nine practices back east. I was working side by side with our chief medical officer to get people well, stay well, lifestyle behavior modification. So this was even outside of just traditional primary care and sick care. This was concierge. People were already paying, they're already investing in above and beyond. And even that, four years in, I was like we're not doing it. This, this isn't even doing it. 

36:39 - Tiffany (Guest)

Yeah, I mean the system has to change. There's a few people trying to, you know, make the movement. There's functional medicine, lifestyle changes, but at the root of it, like the government and big pharma. That's why we got you here. We got we got Tiffany moon in the house. Yeah, I'm going to change Exactly. 

36:56 - Chase (Host)

Yeah, yeah, you have to. Okay. So talking about overcoming adversity and kind of finding connection. Now you're incredibly open about your miscarriage, pcos and a lot of fertility struggles. I've been there, took my wife and I a year and a half to get pregnant, had a miscarriage as well. What made you want to share that vulnerability and how and why do you think it was a part of your book? 

37:18 - Tiffany (Guest)

When I decided to write this book, which is a memoir with like a self-help angle to it, I decided with my editor that I wasn't going to leave any parts out, because I just feel like I couldn't show up and write these joy prescriptions and tell you how to live your life more authentically and with more joy if I was withholding parts of my life. So we decided at the very beginning I am just going to tell everything exactly like it is and if people don't like it, it doesn't resonate whatever. But at the end of it I want to know that I wrote the book that I wanted to write and she was like no, you should. She was like don't hold back. 

37:56 - Chase (Host)

So I wrote it all Very good editor. 

37:59 - Tiffany (Guest)

I mean she was like part editor, part therapist while I was sending her some of these earlier chapters, because a lot of the earlier chapters talking about my childhood frankly resurfaced a lot of feelings that I had swept under the rug for decades, right. 

38:14 - Chase (Host)

To be willing to share one or two with us. And how did you navigate them, coming back out from underneath the rug? 

38:18 - Tiffany (Guest)

Yeah, just you know complicated feelings about the way my parents had left me in China. I feel like now I always have like a little bit of abandonment syndrome, like I never really let people get too close. That way they can't abandon me. 

38:31 - Chase (Host)

What do you mean? Left you in China? 

38:33 - Tiffany (Guest)

Oh, okay, so I was born in China and my parents were on student visas. They came to America on like I don't know what it's called J one or I don't know, one of those visas, um, and they left me with my grandparents. 

38:45 - Chase (Host)

So I didn't three, three. Wow. 

38:48 - Tiffany (Guest)

And then when I was six and they finished their studies, they, my grandparents, put me on a plane by myself to go from China to New York City, like by myself. And I remember. You know, you don't, I don't really remember that many memories before the age of six, I really don't. 

39:07

I kind of remember going to the park and like riding this little tricycle, but like it's pretty fuzzy. I kind of remember going to the park and like riding this little tricycle, but like it's pretty fuzzy. That's why, when people describe like things they did when they were two in like explicit detail, I'm like, really, really I was. I distinctly remember being pried off of my grandmother at the airport by a flight attendant because she was like we got to go and I was like no, I don't want to go to America. So, um, then I met my parents, who were practically strangers. Right, I had not seen them for three years. 

39:39 - Chase (Host)

This is not in the era you hadn't seen them at all no, they didn't have this. 

39:43 - Tiffany (Guest)

this is, I think, once a year, like the phone would ring and on the. You know, very staticky, this is in like 1988. You know, like it's so crazy. You know, very staticky, this isn't like 1988, you know, like it's so crazy, you know. 

39:55

And then I I kind of never made up with my parents, like I always felt distance from them, and then, growing up as a child and then an adolescent, and then started dating, I would always like have this anxiety that, like my lover would leave me and I I never figured out where that came from and I would like try to like hold tightly, you know, and be like jealous and controlling and all those things. And it wasn't until my mid thirties that I'm working with a therapist, that one day I'm sitting on her lovely velvet sofa and she's like do you think the fact that when your parents left you in china when you were three years old has anything to do with the fact that you have all these abandonment issues? And I was like what the fuck? I was like I was like you know what I mean, but when she said it it was so obvious, like duh. 

40:49

but up until then it was not obvious and it yes, and it it made sense why in my life I never let people get too close to me because I didn't want to give them the power to possibly abandon me. Like every time I got too close with a guy, like I would break up with him and he'd be like what the hell, yeah? And like he's getting too, you know, like he now has the power to hurt me, like if something I would think he would leave me or I would have these morbid thoughts that something bad would happen to him. I have these. I have like crazy thoughts in my head. 

41:23 - Chase (Host)

You're doing okay these days. You're like are we okay? Do we need to call a psychiatrist? 

41:27 - Tiffany (Guest)

Yeah, no, I I um talk about in in chapter seven of the book. I call it joy interrupted, but Brene Brown calls it foreboding, where you're sort of like waiting for the other shoe to drop. And as an anesthesiologist it actually is a wonderful characteristic because it keeps my patients safe, because I worry about my patients Every day. I assess patients, I look at their medical history, what surgery they're having, and I try to mitigate risk, I try to predict what might go bad during surgery. And then I would do A, b and C to protect you right and to maintain homeostasis. I would transfuse blood, I would give you pressers, I would give you this medication, all those things. But in life it's constantly anticipating the bad things that are going to happen and it's no way to live. 

42:20 - Chase (Host)

I've got to wonder how liberating that is for you now to kind of like put a finger on this lifelong characteristic that my words, not yours was was driving you crazy. That was, you know, kind of maybe deviating and derailing relationships, even the one with yourself, and you didn't really know why. 

42:39 - Tiffany (Guest)

Right yeah, so much therapy. 

42:44 - Chase (Host)

Feelings, feelings, feelings. I hate them, I hate them. 

42:48 - Tiffany (Guest)

I particularly went into a medical specialty where there was the least amount of feelings possible. When it was time to decide a medical specialty, I fell in love with anesthesia because it was so precise. It catered to my you know OCD tendencies lots of pharmacology, lots of physiology and no feelings because the patient's asleep. 

43:11 - Chase (Host)

That's um. It came down to basically that my wife, when she was looking at grad school, that brought us out to California USC. Here she was looking at CRNA yeah, certified registered nurse, anesthetist Yep Anesthetist or family medicine, yeah and it came down to she thought she was just really like I don't want to talk to people, right? I, you know, I want to take care of them, but like I want like the whole aspect of being asleep, yeah, very appealing yeah. But then she came out of her shell a little bit more therapy feelings. 

43:38 - Tiffany (Guest)

And she's like wait a minute. 

43:38 - Chase (Host)

No, actually no. I I really do enjoy this, but you know I'm gonna make it on my terms. 

43:42 - Tiffany (Guest)

The problem with people like patients and stuff is she is going to end up having a stroke Like I would literally worry about my patients, and then with anesthesia, like it doesn't allow me to because it's such a finite period of time. I drop them off in the PACU and then it's kind of done. It's really the perfect specialty for someone like me. 

44:17 - Chase (Host)

Well, I'm sure everyone who's a patient of yours feels very safe and secure, and so it's good to hear you know. Maybe take note for yourself you don't need to take all the work home, but it's good to know that there are doctors out there actually continuing listening and caring and feeling for their patients. 

44:25 - Tiffany (Guest)

Yeah. 

44:25 - Chase (Host)

Yeah, if you could rewrite the definition of success for your daughters, what would it be and why? 

44:35 - Tiffany (Guest)

I would tell them that success is being able to be yourself and be surrounded by people that you love and have enough without a constant desire to want more. I think that was my problem. I always wanted more and I never felt that I was enough, and so I kept looking for external validation from anywhere that I could get it. 

45:05 - Chase (Host)

Do you think that definition holds as true for you as you want it to for your daughters? 

45:11 - Tiffany (Guest)

I am striving to redefine success for myself to be that definition instead of what I previously defined it as, which is how many degrees and awards do you have hanging on your wall? How many commas do you have in your bank account? You know that kind of stuff Because at the end of the day, it doesn't matter, it really doesn't. Yeah. 

45:40 - Chase (Host)

What does joy look like for you now, here today? 

45:44 - Tiffany (Guest)

Joy for me is being able to say no without guilt, to say yes without fear, to not be a people pleaser anymore, to realize that perfection is unattainable, and I frankly don't want that anyway. I love the imperfect, messy action that propels me forward in my business. I love laughing, connecting with people. You know, before I said in the book I felt like I was living life on the surface of the water, never going deep enough to make any real meaningful connections, and I refuse to do that anymore. I don't want to small talk and chit chat. I want to have these kind of deep, meaningful discussions or not, and if I'm tired I want to take a rest. It's not some badge of honor to keep going at the expense of my mental, emotional, physical health, my relationships. 

46:51

There was a couple of years that I probably wasn't a great mom, probably wasn't a great wife. Those were the housewife years and I just I was, you know, like, have you ever been around certain people that literally bring out the worst in you? Like my ex was this way. My friends were like, please don't hang out with this person anymore, because we don't even like you when you're around him. That's. That's like what housewives did. I was such a toxic person. I was so self-absorbed, such a toxic person. I was so self-absorbed, so just toxic. I was drinking too much, like you know, but but I realized it, you know, before it was too late, Cause I think people drink the Kool-Aid too much. 

47:36 - Chase (Host)

Literally, yeah, yeah. Why do you think that was? Was it just because this quite literal lens of the world watching you kind of personified this stuff and you kind of had to step into this alternate identity? 

47:46 - Tiffany (Guest)

or yeah, and then it's being broadcast to the world and you're expected to post on socials about it. And then you read the comments and you're getting all these dms and people are talking about you and you're getting recognized. It's too much like fame is not all it's cracked up to be. I don't think it's all that. 

48:03 - Chase (Host)

So then, how did you know it was time to step back? 

48:06 - Tiffany (Guest)

Because I didn't like the version of myself that I was becoming. I didn't like that person. It didn't feel authentic, it didn't feel joyful. I wanted out of there. People, by and large, know when something doesn't resonate with them but they keep in the relationship or they keep in the job or whatever. But you have to listen to your gut and my gut was telling me this is bad for you. 

48:35 - Chase (Host)

To get a little technical, a little medical, a little clinical, because not only are you this amazing woman, accomplished author and mother and a very real, vulnerable human being, but you're a physician. So I'm curious through the lens of medicine, can you walk us through the health benefits of joy and maybe, when we're living without or without enough joy in our life, what might be some symptoms, some illnesses, some diseases, some just overall lack of health in our life? And then how could, by using joy and focusing on joy as a modality, a supplement, if you will, in our health, could we actually see and feel the needle move towards longevity, thriving homeostasis. 

49:19 - Tiffany (Guest)

Yes, I love this question. The lack of joy, stress, having the dissonance of not showing up as who you truly are raises your cortisol levels. That causes inflammation. That leads to cardiovascular disease. Right, this is not a reach by any means. 

49:39 - Chase (Host)

The number one killer of all humans worldwide. Yes, Cardiovascular disease Correct. Still I think yeah, Correct. 

49:44 - Tiffany (Guest)

And mostly through modifiable factors. Do you know what I mean Like? Sometimes you know people say cancer. It's hard to tell you know who gets it and who doesn't, although there are some factors that clearly are linked to cancer but cardiovascular disease, there are clearly modifiable risk factors that you have some control over for getting cardiovascular disease. The other thing is the Surgeon General not too long ago said that loneliness is an epidemic in this country and it is equivalent to smoking a pack of cigarettes per day. Not one per year in France. A pack per day Loneliness is Now. 

50:24

Explain to me why that could be and also explain to me how, in a world where we are more connected than ever, connected, correct, and we have the world in the palm of our hand, right In the form of my phone that's charging right. Explain to me why, if we're more connected and we have access to more information than ever, why the rates of loneliness, suicide, depression and anxiety are higher now than ever. Explain to me why every day in the United States a physician kills themselves. That is wild. Someone who is obviously smart, educated, has invested so much in themselves, is offing themselves. Something doesn't seem right. There's a dissonance in what we need as human beings, which is laughter connection. Which is laughter connection, the feeling that we're doing something to better society and what society actually values Followers, money, lamborghinis. It's crazy, you know, and there's a dissonance, and I think that's causing a lot of detriment to people's health. 

51:44 - Chase (Host)

And I think that's causing a lot of detriment to people's health. I personally think, as you're describing all these ways to cultivate and to introduce and to harvest really joy in our life, I think one of the best ways that we could feel joy is to try and give it. How would you recommend someone to go about their life if maybe they're struggling with doing these things for themselves? For whatever reason, sometimes it's easier for us to give instead of take. 

52:12 - Tiffany (Guest)

Yes. 

52:13 - Chase (Host)

How could we give joy in a way that you feel would come back to us and ultimately be receiving joy? 

52:19 - Tiffany (Guest)

Yeah, that's such a good question, I think. Do something nice for someone else without expecting anything in return. That person could be a stranger, that person could be someone you know. That person could be someone that you're trying to speak to through the lens of your camera, through content that you make. It doesn't have to be like this huge big thing. Right and try to make someone laugh, try to be the light in someone's life, just one day, one small thing, I mean. 

52:50

Look at your baby. They giggle, they laugh, they stick their hand in their mouth. They're curious, you know. And then they cry when they're wet or they're hungry or they have gas. But it's very clear, you know your baby does not care about followers or numbers of commas in your bank account. You know like we all start out so pure and so joyful and as we age, the joy is extracted from us because the parents tell oh, don't do that, don't do that. You need to work hard, you need to study, you need to do this and slowly and slowly, from childhood to adolescence, to young adulthood, to adulthood, the joy is extracted from our being. So the best thing you can do as a human, as a father, is to try to preserve that joy for your children as long as you can, and to shield them from all the outside forces that are trying to take the joy away from them. 

53:49 - Chase (Host)

Well, I don't think my son has anything to worry about in that department. All I do is just make dumb jokes all the time. 

53:55 - Tiffany (Guest)

Does he laugh at your jokes? 

53:56 - Chase (Host)

Do you just make farting noises? 

53:57 - Tiffany (Guest)

I mean babies are so easy to please. That's the thing. Babies are so easy to please because they don't have any ulterior motives. 

54:07 - Chase (Host)

It's just, it's the most pure. It's the most pure. 

54:11 - Tiffany (Guest)

You do, you make a fart noise, they giggle right. The only time they're upset is when they have a physiologic need that's not being met. So that's when they cry and they fuss. And then, as soon as you change them or burp them or feed them, then they're fine Adults. We are so complicated. We say one thing when we mean another. We play games, we lie. We should just all go back to being babies. 

54:38 - Chase (Host)

Adult diapers for everyone. Okay, honestly, it would make commuting so much easier. So, as we kind of again to get to the end here, I want to ask you directly talk to us about what, what inspired you to write joy prescriptions, and what do you hope readers are really ultimately going to walk away with in a very like practical, tactical way? 

54:56 - Tiffany (Guest)

Yeah, I wrote the book for other people, but in many ways, I wrote the book for myself. It's the book that I wish I had when I was younger and struggling and didn't feel good enough. I think sometimes people look at me from the outside or look at my Instagram page and think like, oh, she must have it all figured out. She's great Like, she wears cute clothes and and you know vacations nice places. 

55:18

Yes, you throw them in the trash. Can you know? She has these beautiful children, she's a doctor. It's like it's not. Everything is not as it appears, and I just wanted people to hear my story and hopefully extract a few lessons from my story so that they can live with more joy, Because I think if the world has just a little bit more joy, the world will be a better place. Right now, everybody is so divided you can't say anything without pissing someone off. People are so like on edge and I just want to remind people that if we just back down a little bit, if we can laugh together, share a meal together, laugh like it reminds us that sometimes we're more similar than we are different. You know, but? 

56:04

but right now it seems to that everyone's highlighting our differences. 

56:08 - Chase (Host)

Yeah, I love it, I love it. 

56:09 - Tiffany (Guest)

Yeah. 

56:10 - Chase (Host)

I'm so glad for the book, so happy for you and so glad that this is, you know, coming from especially someone like yourself in the healthcare world. Um, because I think it's going to catch a lot of people off guard in a good way. You know, we're maybe sitting here waiting for you. Know, doc, what's the tip, what's the supplement, what's the hack, what's the lab, what's all this stuff that's just going to get me to be an optimized self, to live as long and well and happy as possible. Retract happy. But you know, when you hear, just be happy, do things that make you happy, introduce joy, cultivate joy. Do things that make you happy, introduce joy, cultivate joy, give, take joy. That's the kind of world that I'm trying to live in and that's definitely the world I'm trying to support, and that's exactly why you're here on the show today. 

56:48 - Tiffany (Guest)

Thank you so much, you're very welcome. 

56:50 - Chase (Host)

So before I get to my final question, I've got five kind of quick little rapid fire questions for you. Oh, I love rapid me, I can't read my typing. 

57:03 - Tiffany (Guest)

Okay. 

57:04 - Chase (Host)

You've said you grew up tying your worth, to quote, perfect performance. What's one way you've learned to break that cycle? 

57:13 - Tiffany (Guest)

Oh now I just whatever I'm doing. I don't try to manufacture it, it's just whatever it is. Like that's how it's going to be sent out. Like no more Photoshopping, no more editing a reel for an hour, like whatever it is, just send it out, it is what it is. No one cares anyway. 

57:31 - Chase (Host)

No one cares. Yeah, they're not even watching. No, well, hopefully they're watching this we want you to watch this. 

57:36 - Tiffany (Guest)

Yes, please watch this. 

57:37 - Chase (Host)

Two, Two. What's the prescription for joy you wish every working mom could hear right? 

57:42 - Tiffany (Guest)

now, give yourself some grace. We are so hard on ourselves Like we working moms literally try to do it all and they are driving themselves nuts Like take the night off, have a glass of wine, the kids are going to be just fine. 

57:58 - Chase (Host)

You once, you, once. Wow, I can't read today, excuse me. 

58:11 - Tiffany (Guest)

New dad brain. All right, you once scrubbed into major surgery and it, quote hit you. What lesson did that moment teach? Wasn't going to wake up. You know um trauma surgeries, cancer surgeries. I knew that in in effect, this patient's life was over and it it makes you question your own mortality Like we. None of us know how much longer we have on this earth. You know, and you can't live every day Like it's your last. I mean, that's crazy. You know. But also you have to do things while you're here Because you don't know how much longer you'll have. 

58:45 - Chase (Host)

More life, more life. 

58:46 - Tiffany (Guest)

Every day More life More living More thriving, less just getting by. 

58:51 - Chase (Host)

More cigarettes in Paris. 

58:54 - Tiffany (Guest)

No, people are going to take this the wrong way. You know people taking things out of context, yeah, and then this is going to turn into. Dr Tiffany Moon says you should smoke a cigarette. 

59:02 - Chase (Host)

I'm going to debunk my entire credibility here on the show. How do you define high performance now compared to when you were chasing academic and career accolades? 

59:13 - Tiffany (Guest)

I think high performance is thriving at your job. You know, being in a flow state and working and having the time go by and be like oh my God you know, instead of like dragging and looking at the time to see when you can clock out. I mean that's the thing of thriving. And now I, you know, run multiple businesses. I have a women's leadership conference that I run and and that really fuels me and brings me so much joy, um more than I think you know, practicing medicine, yeah. 

59:42 - Chase (Host)

Current favorite guilty pleasure reality TV show. 

59:45 - Tiffany (Guest)

Oh, I don't really watch TV, oh no, oh, what? What are some? I don't see you, I only know by compared to my wife. 

59:55 - Chase (Host)

She loves anything on Bravo. She just she loves, she loves. It's an easy way for her to check out. I think um, I'll watch some of uh the valley. It's like a current spinoff from like um vanderpump rules, I think couldn't tell you a single person. Yeah, and I don't watch any desperate housewives, sorry real housewives. Yeah, yeah, I did oh wow, that's up for audience like that's like I remember watching that show forever ago on abc like yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah I remember terry hatcheratcher from like Superman when I was like kind of young. 

01:00:24

The Real Adventures of Lewis and Clark? The New Adventures of Superman? 

01:00:28 - Tiffany (Guest)

I don't know she was the super girl on some show yeah. 

01:00:31 - Chase (Host)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, she was Lois Lane on the Superman show. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

01:00:34 - Tiffany (Guest)

But see, I don't watch TV anymore. My attention span is so short, so short. I only watch like Instagram reels or Tik TOKs. And I listened to all my podcasts at like 1.5 speed, because if I listen at normal speed my mind will wander and then I like didn't hear what just happened, Like I have to listen fast so that my brain actually focuses. Does that make sense? 

01:00:55 - Chase (Host)

I yeah. I actually I do I do I understand? Um, and it makes me wonder, you know, is that the next stage of television? Are we going to start seeing TikTok TV, where it's a TV show in 15 seconds? You know, we're getting all this kind of micro content. We're supposed to go from the beginning, middle end and comprehend a story or a call to action or something. 

01:01:15 - Tiffany (Guest)

No, I don't think so. People still love traditional TV, like all the dramas that are on, like Bridgerton and like white Lotus, like people still love those shows. 

01:01:25 - Chase (Host)

I'm a movie guy. I love sitting down and just watching. 

01:01:27 - Tiffany (Guest)

I'm a documentary girl, but really I love reading books, okay. 

01:01:31 - Chase (Host)

What book are you reading? 

01:01:31 - Tiffany (Guest)

right now I'm reading an old book, how, by Dale Carnegie. It's so old and it's called how to stop worrying and start living. I've read it before. You know I love reading books again, right, I read that book probably five, 10 years ago, but I'm reading it now again and I'm like I didn't pick up on that line last time. Like I, it's like a new book, even though I've definitely read it before. I think, depending on what stage of life you're in and what's going on in your life, the book hits different. 

01:02:02 - Chase (Host)

It does and I can. I can add onto that I've been rereading the same book every day for about 10 years now. And what book is that it's called the daily stoic? Oh, and it's short passages. 

01:02:15 - Tiffany (Guest)

Oh yeah, I love Ryan holiday. 

01:02:17 - Chase (Host)

The same passage, technically the same book every day, but it's, you know know, a different page annually. Yeah, so I read it today compared to june 26, 2024. Right, I'm a totally different person. 

01:02:28 - Tiffany (Guest)

It's different because you're a dad now and you weren't in 2024, right? I? I love ryan holiday I. You know um stoicism. I I really subscribe to that. Yeah, I mean, that was the whole thing before you know, mel robin, and let them, it's all stoicism right Cause it's like you can't control. 

01:02:46 - Chase (Host)

No, there are no new ideas. Repackaging and getting creative Correct. 

01:02:49 - Tiffany (Guest)

There are no new ideas. There are just old ideas, repackaged but told by people who you like and relate to. So all of a sudden it hits you know. Oh, dr Tiffany moon says that comparison is the thief of joy. Oh my God, that's earth shattering. I've never heard that before. But some people, because they saw themselves in me, they're also an immigrant, they're also a high achieving professional woman who has been wrapped up in worthiness. They're like, oh my God, your book spoke to me. 

01:03:17 - Chase (Host)

That hits me. 

01:03:18 - Tiffany (Guest)

Right. 

01:03:18 - Chase (Host)

Yeah, it's like a new music these days, when this generation, or even just someone of any generation, finally is like I love this song and you go wait a second, it's a remake, it's a sample. Yeah, the song is actually 10 years old, 50 years old. We're even just repackaging music. 

01:03:33 - Tiffany (Guest)

I don't even like the new music Me and my bestie were listening to like 1990s like. Tlc Mariah Carey, janet Jackson, swv. That's the jam. 

01:03:43 - Chase (Host)

This shit, that kids listen to these days. 

01:03:46 - Tiffany (Guest)

It's trash, trash. 

01:03:48 - Chase (Host)

So go back and listen to the classics everybody. 

01:03:51 - Tiffany (Guest)

Boys to men. 

01:03:52 - Chase (Host)

I'll make love to you. I mean pretty sure I lost my virginity. Okay, cut Cooley. High Harmony was my jam back in the day. 

01:04:01

All right, so let's bring it home. Okay, my last question. It's been a pleasure to have you on the show, thank you again. So I'm always curious, my guest's interpretation of my mantra, my philosophy here of what it means to live a life ever forward, and I bring people on the show who, in my opinion, already embody it and live it. But now it's my opportunity to kind of like extract it from you. So, those two words, tiffany, what do they mean to you? Ever forward? 

01:04:28 - Tiffany (Guest)

Ever forward means constantly striving to be a better person, but also make sure that I'm serving the people around me and making their lives easier. You know, like I always say, you know I'm going to climb the ladder, but when I get to the top I'm going to look down and see who else is coming up so I can give them a hand. 

01:04:44 - Chase (Host)

Yes, yeah, yeah, I'm going to tie a rope to the ladder for you. 

01:04:47 - Tiffany (Guest)

Okay, we'll give you a headstart. 

01:04:48 - Chase (Host)

Yes, please, I love it, I love it. Uh well, the book, your work, your content, all this stuff will be in the show notes and video description if you're watching on YouTube. But where's one place I can go right now to dive deeper with you and to find a little bit more joy? 

01:05:01 - Tiffany (Guest)

Uh, my Instagram would be a good place. I'm at Tiffany moon MD. It's a hodgepodge of stuff. You'll find doctor content, mom content, travel content, the occasional how to style Crocs, which the correct answer is to throw them in the trash. I'm never going to get a Crocs sponsorship now. 

01:05:17 - Chase (Host)

Or maybe you'll be the anti Crocs Crocs hero we all need know. Yes, they're going to dive in and, you know, capitalize on throwing them out. There's got to be some way to leverage. There's no bad publicity, right, right, yeah, yeah. For more information on everything you just heard, make sure to check this episode's show notes or head to everforwardradiocom.